What’s Your Status?
Jun
17
categories : Being Bookish
As I’ve been reading around the blogosphere and twitter recently I’ve seen an increase in discussions centering around the concept of disclosure. It’s an issue I’ve thought about before but frankly haven’t really put to the test for myself because I’ve yet to truly encountered a situation that requires the disclosing of anything. Now granted, I do the whole FTC thing where I tell you where I’m getting my books from but I don’t view that obligation as something that puts into question my integrity or honesty. Whereas, the two scenarios I’ll lay out below tend to fan flames in the blogosphere and incite some strong opinions.
I’ll start by stating that the questions I’m asking here are posed out of curiosity. I’m not here to dictate how people blog I’m just throwing my opinion out there. You do what you do, I do what I do — it’s all about our own personal comfort zones. Having said that, there seem to be two issues that tend to garner attention on a pretty regular basis. So I’m going to touch on each lightly here and open up the floor to hear what you all think on it.
The first issue centers around personal relationships. With the prevalence of social networking it’s dang near impossible not to form tighter relationships with authors and members of the publishing industry than ever before. Many times these relationships are casual acquaintances, but in a great deal of instances there are true and genuine friendships formed. So the question is, if you’ve forged a personal relationship with an author do you review their book? If you do, should you disclose that relationship?
I look at it like this. Does disclosure prove that I’m more trustworthy? Or, does it bring my sincerity and honesty into question because I feel the need to put it out there? As an example, my friend Lenore is someone I met through blogging long ago. Many of you know she’s recently scored a fabulous book deal. Does that mean that because we’re friends, I can’t give you an honest opinion about her book in a review on my blog? Or is it that when I review it you’ll trust my opinion more because I’m speaking of a friend and telling you what I actually think? Honestly, if you read my blog I feel like you know me, you know my style and you know what I like. I like to think you know I’m being honest with you and that my relationship with an author wouldn’t influence my opinion.
I used to think that disclosure of such a relationship was a must. That in order to be viewed by my readers as someone with integrity and who values honesty I need to put it all out there. But really, the more I think on it the more I shift my opinion. I can be a friend and I can be honest. Hell, because I’m your friend I’m *obligated* to be honest. Anyway, are we as bloggers obliged to say “hey, I’m reviewing this book but I think you should know that I hang out and have appetizers and cocktails with this person too so enter at your own risk”? Is it a cardinal sin to keep your personal relationships private and go about your bloggy business?
The second scenario I’m throwing out there is related to gettin’ paid!
Listen, I think it’s safe to assume we all want to make money. Some want to do it through blogging. I have no beef with that. Heck, if I could make enough to live on doing it I would….in a heartbeat. But just how that happens is where I get a bit squeamish. Because, while I am all about getting paid I don’t know exactly where I fall on the business of disclosing it. Well, I guess I do know. I feel like if I’m getting paid to review on my blog I should tell people. We all know that if a person is reviewing for a publication like Kirkus or Shelf Awareness’ new newsletter they’re taking in money and that’s awesome! No disclosure necessary because the expectation is already there. But when I’m blogging on my own, if I’m taking in money from an author or publisher to write a review, to bump up a book on the TBR pile, or to host a giveaway I kinda think people should know that. Frankly, why wouldn’t I want people to know? Couldn’t it be said that it’s the keeping silent on the fact that makes it seem much more distasteful and deceptive? Or does it fall into the category of “it’s just none of your business”?
Now, before people get their panties in a bunch I’m not saying that getting paid for reviews means a person is getting paid to write POSITIVE reviews. Or even that a person shouldn’t get paid. Where I get all wondrous is in the particulars of it all. Which situations may be a bit more grey than others? Why? And under what circumstances should payment be disclosed?
And therein lies the ultimate conundrum for me because I can see it being ok to go the non-disclosure route in one circumstance but then non-disclosure in the other feels like it’s a bit more squicky. Why is it different? Or is it? Is it that I’m just all kinds of super manic and can’t wrap my head around the overall concept of these types of disclosure? Or is it that money makes everything all that more cloudy and suspect in nature? What do you all think, where do you fall?
Lenore Appelhans:
You bring up some discussion-worthy points! As it pertains to my book, obviously sooo many book blogger know me – does that mean they shouldn’t review my book when it comes out? I would hope that everyone feels comfortable being honest when/if they review LEVEL TWO. I don’t expect everyone to fall in love with it and give it five stars. I just hope if someone doesn’t like it, they’ll refrain from tweeting me the link – lol.
June 17, 2011 at 4:22 am
Michelle:
You know I’ll be reviewing it! The interesting part of the equation for me is how the review would impact the relationship as opposed to how reviewing a friend’s book would impact my reputation as a blogger.
June 17, 2011 at 6:24 am
Beth F:
Reviews & Friends: It’s up to the individual blogger. If I’m reviewing a friend’s book, I’d likely disclose that in a subtle way. If I were review Lenore’s book, for example, I’d review it in the exact same way, in the exact same style I always use. Then at the end, when I sometimes link to an author’s website or blog, I’d likely write something like this: “Visit my friend Lenore’s blog to learn more about her and her cats and to see what’s she’s been reading.” There it is: disclosure that we know each other well enough that I’d call her friend; no need for flashy neon signs.
Paid reviews: Agreed, no need to disclose if your review shows up in PW or Kirkus or Shelf Awareness — duh! It was a paid review.
Hawking books, promoting books: YES, I really do think disclosure is important. For most of us, giveaways, for example, mean that a publicist has given you an extra copy or is willing to send a copy of a book to one or more of your readers. A simple “thanks to the publisher for hosting this giveaway” does the trick.
If you are getting paid to give away a book on your blog or on Twitter you should say so, perhaps in the form of “I make $50 for every book I give away on Twitter.” Disclosure is important. It is a lie by omission to let people think you are giving away a book out of generosity or that a publisher has donated a book out of the goodness of its heart. I’d want to know if you are getting paid to give away a book on Twitter or on your blog or if you are being paid to give a book some buzz. Again, no neon sign needed but some sort of statement of disclosure should be easily available to the interested public. If you are getting paid to create buzz or to do a giveaway, you have become a professional marketer or publicist of some sort and are no longer just a reader excited about a book.
June 17, 2011 at 4:57 am
Michelle:
You make an excellent point about paid giveaways making the blogger more of a marketer or publicist. Which, by the way is fine if that’s what he/she wants to be. It comes down to each reader to determine what they value most and what makes them trust a blogger/blog. BUT, if a person isn’t disclosing that payment status how is a reader to make that determination? That is where I get a bit more flummoxed with it all. I also agree on the neon sign comment. Disclosure doesn’t have to be “look at me! look at me!” subtle references do the trick too.
June 17, 2011 at 6:27 am
bermudaonion (Kathy):
Wait, there are people getting paid to write reviews and give away books on their blogs? What am I doing wrong?
I do think some type of disclosure is necessary in both cases when it’s on your blog. It doesn’t have to be huge. I recently reviewed The Bird Sisters and started out by saying I’d gotten to know the author on Twitter, so I was a little nervous before I read her book.
June 17, 2011 at 5:21 am
Serena:
I want to know the same thing, Kathy!
June 17, 2011 at 6:13 am
sassymonkey:
Yes, I know many people who get paid for the giveaways they run. When they are pitched they basically ask for an administration fee to run the giveaway. It’s a promotional event and they are getting paid to promote it. You can also ask the publisher or publicist pitching you to send the books instead of you so that the postage is covered. I tend to veer toward assuming that any blogger running a giveaway (especially those that do lots of them) of anything that is obviously not from their personal collection are being paid to do them… and if not they should be.
June 17, 2011 at 6:14 am
Michelle:
I do loads of giveaways but don’t get paid! LOL But as I mentioned below in a different response it coes down to what is considered payment. I’m thinking of payment as money not books or shipping. Others may feel otherwise. Either way when I do a giveaway & it goes from the publisher I disclose that. I do think I need to revisit the wording of that disclosure as “sponsored” might be the best way to describe that realtionship.
June 17, 2011 at 6:40 am
Beth F:
I too think of paid as getting a check — not a copy of a book.
June 17, 2011 at 7:00 am
Kelly Jensen:
wow. I’ve NEVER been paid for a giveaway. I’ve had a handful run through different publishers, but the bulk of my giveaways are ones that I purchase myself, send myself, and pay for myself to the winner. I feel like disclosing THAT on my giveaways — that *I* pay for them, that *I* buy them — is something I should do since apparently, it’s rare.
June 17, 2011 at 3:24 pm
Michelle:
@kelly – I’ve never been paid for a giveaway either nor have I been paid for book reviews. Again, I’m not counting getting the ARC or shipping of the book from the pub as payment. Maybe others will.
June 17, 2011 at 5:02 pm
Michelle:
HA! That was kinda my first thought too. “How do I get in on this!?!”
June 17, 2011 at 6:28 am
sassymonkey:
How do you get in on it? When you get pitched you reply back and say that you require an admin fee for running the promotion (because that’s what it is) and tell them what it is. The people I know aren’t making vasts sums of money doing it but it pays for the time they spend providing advertising for whatever the person wants them to promote.
It’s another form of advertisement.
And yes, they disclose.
June 17, 2011 at 7:19 am
Liz B:
If someone is getting paid (and I mean cash money, not a review copy of a book) in a situation where I would typically assume that no payment is being made, I want to know. So, that would include being paid for a review or being paid to highlight / mention a book (a TBR pile, a giveaway, etc.) It is then up to me to decide whether or not I trust the review(er). I think this could become even more important, as there are rumblings amongst some that blogs will be the sole way of people finding out about books in the future.
June 17, 2011 at 5:55 am
Serena:
I agree that these issues will become more prominent as bloggers become a sole source of book discovery.
June 17, 2011 at 6:14 am
Michelle:
I’m not sure that I agree that blogs will be the sole outlet of book discovery but I think if you’re getting paid you’re moving out of the “hobbyist” role and into the “professional” role. There is an overlap between the two — ie: when you love what you do and what you are working on — but there is (IMO) a differentiation.
June 17, 2011 at 6:36 am
Michelle:
You bring an interesting variable into the mix here. What exactly is “payment”? I agree with you, when crafting my thoughts above I was thinking strictly cash. Not payment in the form of review copies, shipping of giveaway books, etc. I also agree (and didn’t mean to imply otherwise) that it’s up to the individual reader to determine trust factor. As I mentioned in a reply below though, if there is no disclosure how is a reader best able to determine that if they don’t know anything. Maybe it’s not something that matters but for some maybe it is. Such a gray place really.
June 17, 2011 at 6:34 am
Jana:
This is a very interesting discussion. I had no idea that bloggers could get paid for hosting a giveaway. I have been contacted to host some before but I kind of look at it as an honor for my blog and really wouldn’t assume to ask for money. That might be naive, it’s just what I feel.
June 17, 2011 at 6:26 am
Michelle:
I wouldn’t ask for money either. Even now knowing that some do. I like to get books in the hands of readers who may not get them otherwise so I’m fine to spend the 15 minutes it takes to craft a post, create a form and contact the winner. I don’t need to get paid for that. I don’t have a problem with those who do as they clearly feel like there time is worth being paid for.
June 17, 2011 at 6:46 am
S. Krishna:
A lot of what I think has already been said, but I’ll briefly drop my two cents in.
I don’t think it’s necessary to disclose a personal relationship. For example, if you reviewed Lenore’s book and gave it a 5/5, I’d know you were being honest because I’ve established a rapport with you and trust your opinion. I don’t need to know you’re friends with Lenore, because Lenore is a professional – your friendship is separate from her career. Therefore, if you wanted to say something negative about it, I know you would. Now, personally, if I hated Lenore’s book (not going to happen, of course), I probably would just choose not to review it than write a really negative review.
And the paid giveaways thing is very important too – if someone is being paid to give away a book, that’s not a problem. But not disclosing it is dishonest, in my opinion. Whether on Twitter or a blog, whether you consider yourself a professional reviewer or a book blogger, I think it’s important to disclose these kinds of things.
Okay, so not so brief, I guess!
June 17, 2011 at 6:53 am
Michelle:
@swapna – I don’t feel the necessity to disclose relationships either honestly. I’m going to be honest either way regardless of how well I know an author. I think any true relationship can stand the test of honesty. If it can’t then that’s that. The important thing is in the how it’s said. Bitter, spiteful angry….not really all that wise. Constructive and respectful, yes that’s the way to go about it. And this assumes that the review would be “negative” in nature.
June 17, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Wendy:
Wow, this is an eye-opening post because I had no idea bloggers were asking for administrative fees to hold a book giveaway!! And absolutely that should be disclosed. To be perfectly honest, I have a big, big issue if bloggers are accepting cash fees from publishers or authors for book reviews…because I don’t really see how one can then be objective (totally different if you are working for a third party who pays for reviews…as I would assume they do not have a personal relationship with the author or publisher). I would want to know if a blogger is being paid because I would probably not view their reviews in the same way. It is hard enough to stay honest when we are talking directly to authors and publicists and getting books sent to us – I think it becomes that much harder when we start collecting a paycheck from the very people we are supposed to be evaluating.
Don’t get me wrong – I’d love to make enough money to stay home and read and review books…but realistically, that is not going to happen…and it is also not why I started reviewing books on my blog. I write about books because I am first and foremost a reader who gets excited about literature.
One last thing – IF bloggers were to get paid, I think it would need to be through a third party (I’m thinking book tour groups would be the most likely avenue…or something similar to that). I have to say, it bums me out to think that there are bloggers accepting fees for book giveaways and not disclosing it – it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth.
June 17, 2011 at 7:06 am
Michelle:
@wendy I think the rub on the paid reviews is exactly as you describe it. If money is coming in through third party as opposed to from directly from publisher of book or an author (which, FYI I’ve not heard of any author paying for reviews) I think there is less of a perception that the review is questionable in it’s honesty. Where I find the most difficulty is in the non-disclosure portions of it all. I suspect I’d feel quite deceived if I found out after I’d established a level of trust with a blogger that they were taking money to review books and didn’t mention it. I would immediately question every review because I would wonder why that payment was hidden.
June 17, 2011 at 4:46 pm
Wendy:
Exactly, Michelle!
June 17, 2011 at 8:59 pm
sassymonkey:
For friends… I’m not always capable of being objective. I’ve been lucky to see a number of my friends get published (yay blogging!) and sometimes I’m just so darned proud of them I can’t be anything close to be objective… especially since they are often memoirs. I’d disclose anyway but in those situations I put it way up top.
I do not do paid reviews on my blog (or giveaways) simply because I don’t have time for them. Really. But I 100% believe that any sponsored post on your blog should be disclosed.
June 17, 2011 at 7:08 am
Michelle:
@sassymonkey – I don’t get paid for reviews either. I do giveaways and mark in the post that they are publisher based when applicable. I don’t view their sponsorship of the giveaway and the shipping of the book to the winner as payment as nothing is in my possession nor am I taking any money. As it relates to relationships, I’ll review books if I feel that worried about being able to do so objectively or honestly I would simply tell the friend I couldn’t review it. I think that is a case by case thing for me.
June 17, 2011 at 4:47 pm
sassymonkey:
I just want to clarify my comment – I never said that the people I know who get paid to do giveaways are not disclosing it. I assume that everyone is. I honestly don’t really read giveaways posts (I have pretty much zero interest in them) so I don’t look for disclosure.
Also, I’m not exclusively speaking of book bloggers. I read widely across the blogosphere and have my toes in a lot of different communities. None of my comments should be taken as applying only to book bloggers.
June 17, 2011 at 7:14 am
Michelle:
@sassymonkey I think the fact that you work with blogs outside of book blogging got lost in it all. So that naturally shapes your perspective on it all because different industry/focus might be more accepting of such things.
June 17, 2011 at 4:50 pm
dogearedcopy:
Because I work for an audiobook publisher and I review audiobooks, I am very careful to maintain a high degree of transparency. I mention my affiliation(s) on the “About This Blog” page, and any particular personal bias that I might have in any given review. This actually helps when I’m giving a less than positive review (only a friend would tell you if you’ve got spinach on your teeth) as well as when I’m giving a stellar review. That said, I do NOT review any material I am directly involved in.
As for compensation, I received none in any way, shape or form; but do I want to know if a particular blogger is receiving such? Actually, yes. If a blogger gets rewarded with exclusive interviews, exclusive peeks at other upcoming titles from the same publisher, etc. for writing rave reviews, I’d like to know about that little quid pro quo beforehand. It is an important factor in considering how much weight to give to a particular review.
June 17, 2011 at 7:42 am
Michelle:
@dogearedcopy – I’m all for transparency particularly when money is changing hands. I don’t agree with the quid pro quo scenario though because I believe many book bloggers are getting exclusive access, individualized content regardless of review. I’ve not seen anyone getting special access because they are writing positive reviews. Doesn’t mean it’s not happening just that I’ve not heard of it. Many bloggers do interviews and guest posts and whatnot regardless of their feelings one way or another on a book. Heck many are getting that content before they’re even reading the books to write the review on.
June 17, 2011 at 4:53 pm
Pam:
I don’t think I have formed friendships that are tight enough for me to disclose anything. I love Lenore and everything she does, I am expecting to like her book because I know the vibrancy she shows in daily life will be in those pages. If I don’t like it I will just have to hope she doesn’t hate me for it.
As for getting paid idk what I would do in that situation because I don’t get paid for reviews. Great article!
June 17, 2011 at 10:12 am
Michelle:
@Pam — lenore isn’t going to hate anyone who posts a thoughtful and respectful review of her book. I feel confident about that.
June 17, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Cat @ Beyond Books:
I apparently live in a tiny little naive world where I never even associated money and blogging together. I mean, I do know it happens, but it’s not something that crosses my mind. I’m with you, though, if I was offered enough money to live on so I could blog, I’d be all over that.
As someone who book blogs as she personal blogs (as in, I talk about everything and everything and I don’t really review the book professionally) I have always been honest about where I got the book and if I have since formed a relationship with the author. I don’t change my review because I know the person. But these are things I would just say anyhow because it pertains to why and when I read a book.
I would think that disclosing that you’ve been *hired* to host a giveaway would be a no-brainer, or at least have a disclosure in your About Me that sometimes these things happen. Like product placement, etc. But then again I am the world’s worst liar and I could never sleep at night if I felt I was holding something back that someone might wonder about. I have too much guilt not to be 100% honest!
Would I think that a blogger I don’t really know might be padding the review with positive sunshine if they say they are being paid? Maybe. If ALL of their “paid” blogs were positive.
I only ever post about books that I have read myself. I won’t promote something I have not read and did not like. That’s just me though.
June 17, 2011 at 11:31 am
Michelle:
@cat – I would say what I think about a book regardless of who the author is (friend or foe) no matter what. As I’ve mentioned in other responses I think that if you’re honest and respectful friends will appreciate the feedback. Hell, a review on my blog is likely mush less harsh than what they’ve heard from their critique partners and editors. But I’m getting off track because I still wonder if readers perceive the review of a friends book as questionable. Does it make me untrustworthy. I will go out on a limb and say (as you mention) not so much if I’m honest and point out strengths and weaknesses but if every review of every friend’s book is positive how can that not be questionable? Also, this same “rule” applies to paid reviews. If every single review is positive the justification of “I just know what I like to read” only goes so far. I’d be wondering about it all.
June 17, 2011 at 5:01 pm
Kelly Jensen:
Well, my $.02.
I have some tight relationships with people whose books I review. And you know what? I don’t disclose it. In fact, I don’t talk about those relationships much, period. They don’t influence my review of the book as a book, and the reason I form some of these relationships is because there is that complete understanding that my opinion’s going to be my opinion. The way I review is the way I review, and whether I love the book or hate the book, I make it a *priority* to dissect the intended audience or readership. But that’s just my style of blogging, which I know isn’t necessarily the raging style. I’ve always been behind on trends.
I think in disclosing relationships, you do give your readers more reason to be suspicious of reviews. I get that it’s a way to cover your ass, but I also think that by disclosing that, you’re admitting to potential influence or bias. If you don’t disclose it, no one is none the wiser, and good reviewers will write the review they need to write. By that, I mean any reader will know whether the review is a real review or an influenced one.
About money – I get absolutely none. We don’t even do Amazon associates or any of the other small ad revenues. It wasn’t worth it. The bulk of giveaways, and the ones offered each month with our interviews, are ones I pay for outta my own pocket with my own cash. Why? It’s my way to support the author in some small part (fractions of pennies, of course). The ones we do as part of a publisher/publicity pitch we are extremely strict about. We have an entire section of our review policy that says we would never take one without being able to support the book itself. And so, I guess we get “paid” because we insist on a review copy (at least an offering of one — we don’t always take it if we know the material). And in those posts, we say where the book’s coming from to the winner.
Cash? Never.
I’d never ask for an administrative fee to do a giveaway or review. I think that would make me dishonest to myself and to my readers. I know a lot of bloggers who DO get paid for things, and I do sometimes question the integrity, particularly if they don’t disclose…and most don’t.
I have unpopular opinions, and I’m okay with that.
June 17, 2011 at 3:32 pm
Kelly Jensen:
And for what it’s worth, my review copies do not become my personal collection. They go to my teenagers at work. I find it frustrating when people keep the review copies as their personal collection — mine are always on the move or they’re in the hands of my kids.
June 17, 2011 at 3:49 pm
Michelle:
@kelly – I used to think disclosure of relationships is important but the more I think on it the more I tend to move towards your thoughts on it. I’m going to be honest either way. You make a good point on the issue of if knowing I’m a friend of the author makes a true difference or will it just serve to make people question me? I don’t currently make money off my blog though I am entertaining the idea of advertising. I don’t find that to be a conflict of any sort because (at least in my case) it’s a third party filtering the ads in so I’m not getting paid directly from advertiser. Like you, I only do giveaways of books that I’ve read and reviewed. Again, like you, if I’m pitched a giveaway I require a book for myself so I can read/review. If I can’t get that I’m not doing it. Is that payment, I guess some would consider it so.
June 17, 2011 at 5:11 pm
Kelly Jensen:
And don’t get me started on those bloggers who ask authors or publishers for items TO give away. Get your own stuff to give away.
June 17, 2011 at 3:33 pm
booksNyarn:
I haven’t seen any examples of book bloggers myself that get paid for giveaways or endorsements. I have seen bloggers in different areas that definitely do, and usually that is with disclosure.
I was going to say that I think of being “paid” as cash, but then almost wrote about the bloggers that endorse a product because they have received a free one and review it. Sometimes they receive one for giveaway also. Yet I wasn’t thinking of it in the terms of books…although maybe I should? I don’t know, I find it a grey area myself, the more I write!
June 17, 2011 at 3:39 pm
Michelle:
@booksnyarn – I definitely consider payment as cash. Others may think ARCs and shipping and such constitute it as well. In that way (the books/shipping) I get paid to blog. Hell, me and 50 million other bloggers, lol. I don’t consider my reviews an endorsement even though I may get the book from the pub I’m outlining strengths and weaknesses and asking people to determine for themselves whether to read it or not.
June 17, 2011 at 5:15 pm
Philip Weiss:
* anything where that gives the appearance of partiality that isn’t obvious should be disclosed.
* this includes friendship relationships.
* it does not include acquaintance relationships.
* if a person thinks, should I disclose or shouldn’t i, the rule of thumb is disclose. the fact of asking the question implies it should be done.
* if there’s an economic tie between the reviewer and the reviewed, it should be disclosed.
* reviewers shouldn’t review things when they get an economic benefit from the reviewed.
* this includes sponsored giveaways.
* this is not everything that should be done.
* no one has to follow these bullet points. i, however, will stop reading review blogs that don’t.
there’s a blogger that took a job doing PR work for Tor Books who continued to review Tor books. There was the blogger who took payments for her book reviews, and didn’t disclose them. or the blogger who started running an online book club for penguin, who reviewed penguin books. or the blogger who started an social media advisory company, and reviewed one of her client’s books. there are tons of examples of people who are making money by compromising their independence. (great! go for it! you don’t gotta care about independence like I do.)
June 17, 2011 at 4:38 pm
Michelle:
@philip You make a good point with your comment about when in doubt just disclose. It’s better to err on the side of transparency. I don’t agree that sponsored giveaways are an economic benefit. I’m not taking possession of the book nor am I getting paid. I’m just running the giveaway and I’m fine with getting the book into the hands of someone who wants it. Now, this all hinges on the definition of sponsored. If you’re talking about getting paid cash to run the giveaway then I would likely fall more on the side of what you’re saying above. You have loads of examples of what you consider questionable behavior that I’d not heard of. That has the potential to open up more for discussion.
June 17, 2011 at 5:22 pm
Kelly Jensen:
I have to disagree with the friendship relationships — you don’t need to know it. It raises more suspicions. I pride myself on being non-biased since the fact of the matter is, those I’m friends with, I am friends with for reasons other than holy crap, they’re an author of a book I like.
June 17, 2011 at 6:19 pm